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	<title>Comments on: 5 Simple Economic Reasons that the Free Market Cannot Work</title>
	<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/</link>
	<description>Take No Prisoners</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kavan Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1982</link>
		<author>Kavan Wolfe</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>@ G, If the economic prediction that an unregulated market will lead to a fair distribution of wealth is tautological, it is also irrelevant to policymaking. This is one of the great tricks of economists. If we define fair as everyone getting what they deserve, most people think this is a good idea. However,if we define "fair" as the state produced by a free-market, how do we know "fair" is desirable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ G, If the economic prediction that an unregulated market will lead to a fair distribution of wealth is tautological, it is also irrelevant to policymaking. This is one of the great tricks of economists. If we define fair as everyone getting what they deserve, most people think this is a good idea. However,if we define &#8220;fair&#8221; as the state produced by a free-market, how do we know &#8220;fair&#8221; is desirable?</p>
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		<title>By: G</title>
		<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1972</link>
		<author>G</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 14:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1972</guid>
		<description>&#62;The minarchist idea of a government that only protects rights wouldn’t negate a free market, but it’s impossibility - for an entity to be anything we would recognize as “government” it must necessarily infringe on rights

That's not what minarchism is. Minarchism simply means a desire for a small government. I do want the government to violate the rights of victimizers. For example, if someone doesn't pay their debts, the government should violate their rights and facilitate seizure of their property. If someone goes on a shooting spree, I want the government to violate their right to be unharmed. But non-vicitimizing acts like growing certain kinds of plants, smelting pennies, or having a brown lawn (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3621205)  shouldn't be prosecuted as crimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;The minarchist idea of a government that only protects rights wouldn’t negate a free market, but it’s impossibility - for an entity to be anything we would recognize as “government” it must necessarily infringe on rights</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not what minarchism is. Minarchism simply means a desire for a small government. I do want the government to violate the rights of victimizers. For example, if someone doesn&#8217;t pay their debts, the government should violate their rights and facilitate seizure of their property. If someone goes on a shooting spree, I want the government to violate their right to be unharmed. But non-vicitimizing acts like growing certain kinds of plants, smelting pennies, or having a brown lawn (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3621205)  shouldn&#8217;t be prosecuted as crimes.</p>
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		<title>By: G</title>
		<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1971</link>
		<author>G</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1971</guid>
		<description>&#62;A free market is one in which buyers and sellers determine prices without
&#62;coercrion. If the government buys and sells, but does not regulate, the market
&#62;is simulteously “free” and affected by government.
If I don't pay 50% of my money to the government every year, they will come and shoot me. That's coercion, and its plenty of money to allow bureaucrats and their ignorant policies to trash the economy like they've have for the last few decades. They're actually spending even more money than that through reckless borrowing.  (BTW I'm a minarchist: I'd prefer a small government and a much freer market over a grotesquely obese government that's trillions in debt.) If only the government would grant me "bank" status, then I would be allowed to pay them with money I don't actually have.

&#62;An unregulated free market will lead to a fair distribution of wealth and
&#62;resources. (By fair, I mean commensurate with an individuals work, talent,
&#62;innovativeness, etc.) 

IMO that's a tautology. From an economic point of view, "fair" and "commensurate with talent" is exactly that determined by looking at free market prices.  For example, a major baseball player makes thousands of times more than a college professor. This is totally fair. The baseball player provides enjoyment to millions, while the college professor teaches maybe a hundred students.

Do you have some other way of determining "fair"??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;A free market is one in which buyers and sellers determine prices without<br />
&gt;coercrion. If the government buys and sells, but does not regulate, the market<br />
&gt;is simulteously “free” and affected by government.<br />
If I don&#8217;t pay 50% of my money to the government every year, they will come and shoot me. That&#8217;s coercion, and its plenty of money to allow bureaucrats and their ignorant policies to trash the economy like they&#8217;ve have for the last few decades. They&#8217;re actually spending even more money than that through reckless borrowing.  (BTW I&#8217;m a minarchist: I&#8217;d prefer a small government and a much freer market over a grotesquely obese government that&#8217;s trillions in debt.) If only the government would grant me &#8220;bank&#8221; status, then I would be allowed to pay them with money I don&#8217;t actually have.</p>
<p>&gt;An unregulated free market will lead to a fair distribution of wealth and<br />
&gt;resources. (By fair, I mean commensurate with an individuals work, talent,<br />
&gt;innovativeness, etc.) </p>
<p>IMO that&#8217;s a tautology. From an economic point of view, &#8220;fair&#8221; and &#8220;commensurate with talent&#8221; is exactly that determined by looking at free market prices.  For example, a major baseball player makes thousands of times more than a college professor. This is totally fair. The baseball player provides enjoyment to millions, while the college professor teaches maybe a hundred students.</p>
<p>Do you have some other way of determining &#8220;fair&#8221;??</p>
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		<title>By: Kavan Wolfe</title>
		<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1969</link>
		<author>Kavan Wolfe</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 05:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1969</guid>
		<description>@S, yes, the free market doesn't necessarily result in a fair distribution of wealth. That was the point of my post.  I believe you will find that, to refute the "theory of a monopoly truly being possible without some type of government intervention" requires you to make certain assumptions. A simple example would be the Mafia. If there is no government intervention, and we have a single, powerful Mafia, they'll just kill anyone who dares to compete with them. This is essentially what governments themselves have done through history. For thousands of years, kings were simple replaced by other kings, not by proliferations of lesser lords.

@Peter, you are entitled to your opinions, even if they are at odds with the facts. I have neither the time nor patience to point out the flaws in your arguments. Just to show that I'm not full of shit, I will address just your last point. Suppose we have a monopoly, and a small company challenges it. Suppose the monopoly undercuts the small company and runs it out of business. Temporarily, this lowers prices. Now suppose it happens again, and again. After a few times, people start to catch on that if you try to compete with the monopoly, they'll run you out of business. Eventually they just give up trying. Unless you have a graduate degree in economics, I suggest you ask yourself why you're so sure you've got this figured out. I've been reading economics research papers on and off for years, and I don't pretend to have it figured out. I'm just pointing out the assumptions that keep recurring in these papers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@S, yes, the free market doesn&#8217;t necessarily result in a fair distribution of wealth. That was the point of my post.  I believe you will find that, to refute the &#8220;theory of a monopoly truly being possible without some type of government intervention&#8221; requires you to make certain assumptions. A simple example would be the Mafia. If there is no government intervention, and we have a single, powerful Mafia, they&#8217;ll just kill anyone who dares to compete with them. This is essentially what governments themselves have done through history. For thousands of years, kings were simple replaced by other kings, not by proliferations of lesser lords.</p>
<p>@Peter, you are entitled to your opinions, even if they are at odds with the facts. I have neither the time nor patience to point out the flaws in your arguments. Just to show that I&#8217;m not full of shit, I will address just your last point. Suppose we have a monopoly, and a small company challenges it. Suppose the monopoly undercuts the small company and runs it out of business. Temporarily, this lowers prices. Now suppose it happens again, and again. After a few times, people start to catch on that if you try to compete with the monopoly, they&#8217;ll run you out of business. Eventually they just give up trying. Unless you have a graduate degree in economics, I suggest you ask yourself why you&#8217;re so sure you&#8217;ve got this figured out. I&#8217;ve been reading economics research papers on and off for years, and I don&#8217;t pretend to have it figured out. I&#8217;m just pointing out the assumptions that keep recurring in these papers.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1959</link>
		<author>Peter</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://thewaronbullshit.com/2008/06/05/free_market_cant_work/#comment-1959</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;@Peter, by “according to *economic theory*” I’m referring to the implicit assumptions of many theories in both macro- and microeconomics. If you want a specific example, the basic ideas of supply and demand taught in first-year economics classes, like ‘when supply is held constant, a drop in demand leads to a drop in price,’ make these assumptions.&lt;/i&gt;

And I'm saying "no they don't".

&lt;i&gt;Whether or not electric cars seemed like a good idea to you is irrelevant.&lt;/i&gt;

Sure.  But the fact that you think them a good idea is &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; irrelevant.  Since you were holding up your opinion as the basis of your belief that there's something wrong with the state of economics because electric cars aren't produced, my opinion is at least equally good as a refutation.

&lt;i&gt;Slavery seemed like a good idea to George Washington, and he was probably smarter than you are. &lt;/i&gt;

There's no way to know, but the Wisdom of the Internet puts GW's IQ at somewhere in the 118-125 range, so I guess not.

&lt;i&gt;A free market is one in which buyers and sellers determine prices without coercrion. If the government buys and sells, but does not regulate, the market is simulteously “free” and affected by government.&lt;/i&gt;

But where does the government get the money and/or goods to buy and sell?  Only through coercion (regulation), which affects the market.  (E.g., every dollar the government takes off you in taxes is a dollar you don't use in whatever way you would have spent it if the government hadn't taken it; or, as you say, bailing out failing companies, etc.).  The government can't do anything, can't even &lt;i&gt;exist&lt;/i&gt;, without affecting the market.  A "&lt;b&gt;free market&lt;/b&gt;" can only exist in the absence of government.  (The minarchist idea of a government that only protects rights wouldn't negate a free market, but it's impossibility - for an entity to be anything we would recognize as "government" it must necessarily infringe on rights, and therefore can't be a protector of rights; a fully voluntary "government" isn't a "government" at all)

&lt;i&gt;The main reason the IP laws are “insane” is that they take something that should be tort law and make it criminal. Since it’s criminal, I’m assuming that an idealized free market would still have it.&lt;/i&gt;

But the point is that it &lt;i&gt;isn't&lt;/i&gt; criminal.  At least if you draw a distinction between legislative law and what, for want of a better term, I'll call "natural law".  (I think we can all agree that Hitler's treatment of the Jews, to take the canonical example, was wrong.  But since he was in a position to make the law (legislation), and did, in order to say it's wrong you have to have some concept of "law" beyond merely whatever government legislators write in their books, or how courts interpret those scribblings.  That's all I mean here)  That governments make something a crime that isn't actually a crime, is itself a crime.  So no, "an idealized free market" wouldn't (couldn't) still have it.

&lt;i&gt;If you make the contrary assumption that a free market economy is altogether lawless, this example does not apply.&lt;/i&gt;

On the contrary, a true free market is not lawless.  Regulation of the market is lawless!

&lt;i&gt;However, my point about imperfect competition does apply, because the basic idea is that if there are no regulations to keep competitors from cooperating, they will&lt;/i&gt;

There's nothing wrong with people cooperating, surely?  (There is, however, a "law" against what you mean - not one made by governments (governments wish they could repeal it!), but one that arises naturally out the "physics" of human action - it's the reason socialism can't work: the inability to calculate without prices, or to have prices without a (somewhat) free market)

&lt;i&gt;A rich, powerful cartel in, say the diamonds industry, can easily squash, buyout or undercut new entrants.&lt;/i&gt;

I'm not sure what you mean by "squash", but how is buying out or undercutting potential competitors a bad thing for anyone?  That means lowering prices, which is precisely the effect you want from the competitors anyway, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>@Peter, by “according to *economic theory*” I’m referring to the implicit assumptions of many theories in both macro- and microeconomics. If you want a specific example, the basic ideas of supply and demand taught in first-year economics classes, like ‘when supply is held constant, a drop in demand leads to a drop in price,’ make these assumptions.</i></p>
<p>And I&#8217;m saying &#8220;no they don&#8217;t&#8221;.</p>
<p><i>Whether or not electric cars seemed like a good idea to you is irrelevant.</i></p>
<p>Sure.  But the fact that you think them a good idea is <i>also</i> irrelevant.  Since you were holding up your opinion as the basis of your belief that there&#8217;s something wrong with the state of economics because electric cars aren&#8217;t produced, my opinion is at least equally good as a refutation.</p>
<p><i>Slavery seemed like a good idea to George Washington, and he was probably smarter than you are. </i></p>
<p>There&#8217;s no way to know, but the Wisdom of the Internet puts GW&#8217;s IQ at somewhere in the 118-125 range, so I guess not.</p>
<p><i>A free market is one in which buyers and sellers determine prices without coercrion. If the government buys and sells, but does not regulate, the market is simulteously “free” and affected by government.</i></p>
<p>But where does the government get the money and/or goods to buy and sell?  Only through coercion (regulation), which affects the market.  (E.g., every dollar the government takes off you in taxes is a dollar you don&#8217;t use in whatever way you would have spent it if the government hadn&#8217;t taken it; or, as you say, bailing out failing companies, etc.).  The government can&#8217;t do anything, can&#8217;t even <i>exist</i>, without affecting the market.  A &#8220;<b>free market</b>&#8221; can only exist in the absence of government.  (The minarchist idea of a government that only protects rights wouldn&#8217;t negate a free market, but it&#8217;s impossibility - for an entity to be anything we would recognize as &#8220;government&#8221; it must necessarily infringe on rights, and therefore can&#8217;t be a protector of rights; a fully voluntary &#8220;government&#8221; isn&#8217;t a &#8220;government&#8221; at all)</p>
<p><i>The main reason the IP laws are “insane” is that they take something that should be tort law and make it criminal. Since it’s criminal, I’m assuming that an idealized free market would still have it.</i></p>
<p>But the point is that it <i>isn&#8217;t</i> criminal.  At least if you draw a distinction between legislative law and what, for want of a better term, I&#8217;ll call &#8220;natural law&#8221;.  (I think we can all agree that Hitler&#8217;s treatment of the Jews, to take the canonical example, was wrong.  But since he was in a position to make the law (legislation), and did, in order to say it&#8217;s wrong you have to have some concept of &#8220;law&#8221; beyond merely whatever government legislators write in their books, or how courts interpret those scribblings.  That&#8217;s all I mean here)  That governments make something a crime that isn&#8217;t actually a crime, is itself a crime.  So no, &#8220;an idealized free market&#8221; wouldn&#8217;t (couldn&#8217;t) still have it.</p>
<p><i>If you make the contrary assumption that a free market economy is altogether lawless, this example does not apply.</i></p>
<p>On the contrary, a true free market is not lawless.  Regulation of the market is lawless!</p>
<p><i>However, my point about imperfect competition does apply, because the basic idea is that if there are no regulations to keep competitors from cooperating, they will</i></p>
<p>There&#8217;s nothing wrong with people cooperating, surely?  (There is, however, a &#8220;law&#8221; against what you mean - not one made by governments (governments wish they could repeal it!), but one that arises naturally out the &#8220;physics&#8221; of human action - it&#8217;s the reason socialism can&#8217;t work: the inability to calculate without prices, or to have prices without a (somewhat) free market)</p>
<p><i>A rich, powerful cartel in, say the diamonds industry, can easily squash, buyout or undercut new entrants.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by &#8220;squash&#8221;, but how is buying out or undercutting potential competitors a bad thing for anyone?  That means lowering prices, which is precisely the effect you want from the competitors anyway, right?</p>
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